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Wednesday, August 25, 2004
McQ finds where NYT became confused re three bullet holes and enemy KIA and WIAs on 13Mar69
The NYT's article last week on Kerry's Bronze Star claimed "three bullet holes [in Thurlow's Swift Boat], suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy" during the Bay Hap River action on March 13, 1969, in which PCF 3 hit a mine and Kerry rescued Rassmann.
Apparently I was not the only one confused and troubled by this report. McQ of QandO has gone back to the source documents that the NYT relied upon, and has figured out what the NYT was talking about, and where they went wrong.
Bottom line: The NYT reporters were confused, and were mistakenly using part of the report that described earlier action elsewhere as if it applied to the later events surrounding PCF 3 hitting the mine and Rassmann being rescued. That earlier action definitely explains the reports of the enemy KIA and WIAs, and could also explain the three bullet holes in Thurlow's boat (although his recollection is that they were from action on the previous day, if I recall correctly what I've read elsewhere).
But the reports of bullet holes and the enemy KIA and WIAs upon which the NYT relied emphatically does not support the conclusion that Kerry, Rassmann, or any of the Swift Boats were under enemy fire at or around the time that PCF 3 hit the mine.
Posted by Beldar at 12:35 AM in Mainstream Media, Politics (2006 & earlier), SwiftVets | Permalink
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Comments
(1) Mike made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 5:30:27 AM | Permalink
I remember this and it also confused me at first. I'm glad someone caught this because I thought I was starting to see "things" that weren't there too. Excellent catch!!!
(2) ed made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 8:30:35 AM | Permalink
Hmmm.
"A mine detonated under PCF 3"
I want to point out here that this *offcial USN document* completely impeaches Kerry's assertion that PCF 94 was struck by an underwater mine.
Since Kerry's "wound" came from the effect of that non-existent underwater mine his 3rd Purple Heart depends entirely on that mine. Since this document only refers to the underwater mine that struck PCF 3, this means that Kerry's version of events is completely impeached.
And by the New York Times no less!
I should write them a thank you note. :)
(3) sam made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 11:00:55 AM | Permalink
Now MSNBC (AP) is saying basically what the NYT said??? I am more confused.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634/
(4) GT made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 12:55:56 PM | Permalink
Doesn't anybody read anymore?
QandO simply made up their interpretation. It is nowhere in the documents they link to.
All it says is they they received enemy fire several times but do not spcify when and where.
In any case a new report our today, based on a different and separate document says there was enemy fire.
(5) Polaris made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 3:55:45 PM | Permalink
GT,
I have the command log taken from Kerry's own site. It does NOT support the existance of a second mine. Furthermore it does NOT support the notion that the PCFs were under fire during this incident. It merely states that during the operation (which took some time), they were fired upon. This is something that all parties agree on.
(6) Polaris made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 3:56:45 PM | Permalink
GT,
That report (by AP) is based on the spot report and that was almost certainly written by Kerry.
(7) Patrick R. Sullivan made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 4:09:03 PM | Permalink
GT, you are the last person to be whining about other peoples' reading. Especially when you aren't even looking at primary documents, but reading AP reports.
BTW, go over to Fox News website, find Hannity and Colmes section, and click on the picture of John O'Neill.
If you can read as well as you'd like others to, you're going to find some embarrassing stuff there. Such as that Larry Thurlow's tub gunner took a bullet wound on March 12th, not on March 13. That's the kind of physical evidence needed, polaris and others have been trying to drum into your thick skull
(8) vnjagvet made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 4:44:44 PM | Permalink
GT:
We understand your frustration. You quit another long thread here, and still fail to advance the ball.
Your case is still weak counsellor, but I admire your persistence.
(9) GT made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 4:56:14 PM | Permalink
Polaris,
Do you have any proof that the report that the AP mentions was based on the spot report? Or did you just make that up?
In any case my point here is a simple one. I'm not interested in debating the number of mines.
The QandO website claims they proved the NYT wrong. But they didn't, at least not with the link they provided. They provide no evidence that the log is only talking about the first part of the mission. It may or it may not. But the document they provided does not say.
(10) ed made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 8:03:58 PM | Permalink
Hmmm.
1. @GT: I'd reply to you but you are a complete waste of time.
2. Further reading of the document is interesting.
Dates of all actions involving PCF 94 under the command of Lt. Kerry.
2/18/1969
2/19/1969
2/20/1969 (2nd purple heart)
2/25/1969
2/28/1969 (1 silver star)
3/1/1969
3/13/1969 (3rd purple heart, 1 bronze star)
2. Detailed timeline as provided by JohnKerry.com:
JohnKerry
3. Late January through Early March, 1969
"Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days..."
Problems:
3.a. According to Command History PCF 94, under Lt. Kerry, was only involved in 7 missions, not 18. Unless these PCF's did more than one mission at a time, or Kerry is counting things this way. Any Swiftees care to comment?
3.b. Only 42 days between Jan 30th and March 13th. Not 48.
4. February 28, 1969
"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving with Coastal ... The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire..."
4.a. Well we all know about that "numerically superior force" farce.
5. March 13, 1969
"For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN ... While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. ... Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. ... Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged boat to safety."
5.a. No questions here. Rassman was on Kerry's boat. Wierd eh?
5.b. An underwater mine detonates and the only notable effect was a scratch on Kerry's arm?
5.c. "return" to assist eh?
5.d. Sniper fire from both banks? What? They didn't have any better targets?
5.e. "boat to safety"? In Kerry's universe what the hell were the other boats doing?
I can't believe the only mention of the other boats is as background props.
6. March 17, 1969
"The policy of Coastal Squadron One, the swift boat command, was to send home any individual who is wounded three times in action. After sustaining his third wound from enemy action in Vietnam, Kerry was granted relief under this policy."
6.a. "policy"??
Man this stuff looks really really fishy no matter how it's laid out. Additionally when lay the dates out, from the Command History, it looks really crappy.
(11) ed made the following comment | Aug 25, 2004 8:04:17 PM | Permalink
Hmmm.
1. @GT: I'd reply to you but you are a complete waste of time.
2. Further reading of the document is interesting.
Dates of all actions involving PCF 94 under the command of Lt. Kerry.
2/18/1969
2/19/1969
2/20/1969 (2nd purple heart)
2/25/1969
2/28/1969 (1 silver star)
3/1/1969
3/13/1969 (3rd purple heart, 1 bronze star)
2. Detailed timeline as provided by JohnKerry.com:
JohnKerry
3. Late January through Early March, 1969
"Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days..."
Problems:
3.a. According to Command History PCF 94, under Lt. Kerry, was only involved in 7 missions, not 18. Unless these PCF's did more than one mission at a time, or Kerry is counting things this way. Any Swiftees care to comment?
3.b. Only 42 days between Jan 30th and March 13th. Not 48.
4. February 28, 1969
"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving with Coastal ... The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire..."
4.a. Well we all know about that "numerically superior force" farce.
5. March 13, 1969
"For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN ... While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. ... Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. ... Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged boat to safety."
5.a. No questions here. Rassman was on Kerry's boat. Wierd eh?
5.b. An underwater mine detonates and the only notable effect was a scratch on Kerry's arm?
5.c. "return" to assist eh?
5.d. Sniper fire from both banks? What? They didn't have any better targets?
5.e. "boat to safety"? In Kerry's universe what the hell were the other boats doing?
I can't believe the only mention of the other boats is as background props.
6. March 17, 1969
"The policy of Coastal Squadron One, the swift boat command, was to send home any individual who is wounded three times in action. After sustaining his third wound from enemy action in Vietnam, Kerry was granted relief under this policy."
6.a. "policy"??
Man this stuff looks really really fishy no matter how it's laid out. Additionally when you lay the dates out, from the Command History, it looks really crappy.
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